Informal conversations – the key to reducing workplace conflict?

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Terry Duffy: Hello, I'm Terry Duffy. I'm the Strategic Growth Partnership Lead at Acas and I'm joined today by Richard Saundry. Richard, would you like to just introduce yourself, please?

Richard Saundry: So my name is Richard Saundry. Currently, I work at the University of Westminster on the Skilled Managers Research Programme. And I've spent the last 20 to 25 years researching, managing conflict in the workplace, advising organisations, and working very closely with people like yourself at Acas, Terry.

Terry: Thanks, Richard. Conflict can be one of those things where it always exists in workplaces, but sometimes it has some different manifestations. And I suppose we're going to talk today about promoting the early resolution of conflict, which I think most people would agree is a good thing, but it's a challenge.

So, we've heard one of the things that addresses this being a new initiative – Skilled Managers conflict management skills course, a collaboration between Acas and the University of Westminster. Could you describe just a little bit about what that product is?

Richard: Absolutely. So the product, and this is really important, comes from quite an in-depth research project, which myself and some colleagues at the University of Westminster and also the University of Sheffield have been working on for 4 or 5 years. And that research was designed to just investigate the link between developing people's conflict resolution and management skills and sort of outcomes on the ground – things like engagement and whether they're addressing conflict at an early point in an effective way. And we got great results from that, really positive results, great feedback from that project.

As part of that, we designed an online skills intervention, which we called Skilled Managers. And then we worked with colleagues at Acas to develop that into a training intervention that anybody out there can access and they can purchase either for themselves or, if they're in an organisation, for their managers. Essentially the intervention comprises of a couple of parts.

So the first part, and perhaps the main part, is that there is an online training course. Tried to design that to make it really interactive. You're being taught, if you like, by sort of experts in the field, drawing a lot on the expertise of Acas as well, and Acas advisers. We make that as interactive as we can. We use simulations, short videos, discussion scenarios. Just to try to really enliven the learning.

But crucially, it's really flexible. It's short. We've really sort of refined down to what we think are the really core things, so that, you know, we think that managers really need. So they're not wasting too much time on lots of tangential stuff. It's what we think are the really important areas of this topic.

But in addition to that initial course that managers will do who access the conflict management skills course, is they get 12 months access to a toolkit. It's a wide range of online resources, which they can dip into any time they want to. If they are facing a problem at work, if they're dealing with a persistent absence of an employee, or they're worrying about how to manage a poor performer, or they get a serious allegation on their desk, they can dip back into Skilled Managers and have a look at some of the advice and guidance and training which we give on that topic.

Terry: That's really interesting. And I love that idea of learning not just being at one point in time, but those resources – because conflict can happen at any time as well – and having those resources just to refer back to, so that the impact of this training can be long lasting.

I think the other thing when you were talking about this Skilled Managers, was about the early resolution of things. So rather than waiting for things to happen, be proactive in managing things. And the difference that that can make to team morale, team engagement, and indeed the performance and productivity of workplaces, is really, really good to hear.

Richard: I really understand why managers sort of avoid conflict and try and put it off a bit. I mean, I've been a manager. You know, you get a really thorny problem and, to be honest, it's a Friday afternoon and you're thinking "well, I'm going to put it off a little bit because it might go away".

And I know from the research that we've done over the past 10 to 15 years, that avoidant is a real problem. And we know from some other research that we've done on the cost of workplace conflict, this is a significant cost to organisations. And we see – I know you in your work, and me in my research – we see it quite often, whereby a manager just puts off intervening in an issue and they let it, they just let it fester and escalate. And eventually that can end up with a really serious problem and sometimes that person going off sick or perhaps even leaving the organisation. And we know that that costs not only the individuals involved a lot, but it costs the organisation a lot. You know, we calculated it's about £1,000 for every employee in Britain every year. It's a lot of money.

Organisations can invest in their managers upfront. There's a great return on that, because their managers, if they get in early, that is the cheapest and most efficient and most effective way of resolving those issues and sort of creating good employment relationships, keeping people in work. And so early intervention is crucial. And we focus an awful lot of attention in the conflict management skills course on that, in part because we know it's a significant problem. And we also know that the course itself reduces avoidant behaviour from managers, because that's what our research told us.

Terry: When you were saying there about managers being proactive, dealing with these things in the right way, as well as supporting the business I think it has a benefit for the manager too. There's a confidence in their role and how they can not just only interact with that individual that might need to be addressing, but how that can be seen by the rest of the team that you might be managing.

So there's genuinely something in it for line managers to really look at this and get the support and training they need to do the difficult parts of the job if they are finding them difficult in a different way.

Richard: Right at the beginning of the course, we talk about the sorts of skills managers need in terms of things like listening, questioning communication to build good employment relationships in the first place.

And I would always say to managers, if you do that stuff, potentially prevent a lot of conflict from occurring, or you minimise the likelihood. You can't stop it all – you know, people are people. But if you can keep talking to your staff, if you can be curious, if you can ask the right questions, if you spot a problem, have a conversation with that person, and you know how to have a good conversation.

And that's a real feature, I think, of what we're trying to do with Skilled Managers, is that we're trying to encourage managers to have early conversations, but hopefully we're giving them some tips to have good quality conversations. And if managers can do that, they can minimise the amount of really difficult problems that they will have. And also we deal with that in the course as well.

So, if something out of the manager's control hits their desk – I don't know, you've got 2 members of the team, they have a big barney, and there's a real conflict that the manager couldn't do anything about and couldn't foresee. We also give them some more sophisticated strategies and approaches to try to take the heat out of those types of situations and hopefully get a resolution.

To manage conflict effectively, the best way of doing that is building some good relationships with your staff, and, you know, talking to them, having good quality conversations. And that's what we try to focus on I think.

Terry: For me, that is that golden thread that you're trying to retain in any issue that you're dealing with, that the relationship is maintained. Because we all know that dealing with one issue, you're going to perhaps be dealing with another issue further down the line. And having that relationship with members of your team, to be able to do that in the right way, I think is so important. So if…

Richard: And it's hard as well – sorry to interrupt – but it's just hard because we know that managers are under a lot of pressure, and we know that some of those HR people-related problems take time.

Again, one of the things we were trying to do with the work that we've been doing is to acknowledge that and say, okay, well maybe some managers don't have time, they don't have time to do some of the training in the traditional way that they might have done in the past. And therefore that's why we've tried to do something which is really flexible and accessible, where somebody can do 15 minutes at a go.

Terry: If you were to try and identify those core skills that managers need to pay attention to, to maintain the good relationships and manage the conflict early and effectively, what would you say they are?

Richard: One of the key things is asking questions and being able to listen and having a bit of space, and taking 20 minutes to have a conversation with a member of your staff and ask them how things are going, if there's any problems that they have. And if they start hinting at that, actually exploring that a little bit, giving them space to talk. I mean, I think that's the starting point to all this. And we could get a bit more sophisticated as we go down the line. I think we could talk about developing collaborative approaches and things like this. But, you know, if I was to say one thing, I still think that is the most important.

Terry: If we're talking about the early resolution of conflict, usually you are wanting to understand why something isn't being done or is being done in a particular way. And the best thing to do is to ask. And that might just clarify it very, very early that somebody hadn't been told or they'd been told in the wrong way. And that can just correct it, and then it maintains that relationship at the right level.

And it's that avoidance thing, isn't it? You know, you were talking about that earlier, the avoidance thing can actually translate that I don't even ask you a question about why you've done it that way, I just launch in to "this is not good enough". And then we're in another form of conflict immediately.

Richard: There's an awful lot of issues that managers, as you mentioned earlier, are now put at the door of a line manager. And I think sometimes they're worried because they're going to make a mistake or maybe they're going to offend somebody. And therefore that's one reason for avoidance. So if you can give people a bit of confidence to say it's fine to have a conversation, and here's a few things to think about in terms of making sure it's a good conversation. Whatever it's about, you are not going to put yourself in a problematic position with the law or anything else if you have a good quality conversation.

I think the other thing, going back to talking about listening and asking questions, if I can just give you an example. I mean, managing performance is the classic here, where managers might be tempted that they're aware that one of their team is perhaps not doing what they want them to do. They're not quite up to the same level as the rest of their colleagues. And they probably, you know, sit back, wait for a little bit until perhaps they feel they really need to do something. And then they launch in and have a negative conversation with them about, you know, and they don't give the other person a chance to say anything.

And one of the things that I always say to managers is, you need to address those issues, you need to be clear about what the problem is. But then you need to actually give them a bit of space to explain whether there are any issues, what they think the problem is, how they could solve it.

And that does 2 things. One is, it provides a bit of space to have a constructive conversation. But also it puts a bit of onus on the other person so the manager is not just giving them a solution. They're actually saying, right there's an issue here, how are we going to sort it out? And that is far more sustainable.

So that's where the questioning comes in. So it's provided as soon as you ask that question, that the other person perhaps relaxes a bit because they think I've got a space to say something. And it also puts the ball in their court a little bit in terms of coming up with a solution.

The tendency is, and I understand this completely, I've done it in the past when I've been under pressure, is that you see there's a problem, and you launch in, and you don't let the other person speak, and you provide them with the solution, and they go home and they're completely fed up about it. And that just isn't going to work.

So just have given that bit of space and just, as you say, trying to explore the problem, and that's where those sort of questioning skills are actually crucial in my view.

Terry: I think that's good advice. Because experience tells us that sometimes what you believe is the problem is rarely it. And it is only by opening up that opportunity for somebody to tell you what it is that you – and that's where you can actually resolve what might be the root cause of a problem – by being curious, by creating that environment where other things could be revealed, you actually get to say what the real problem is. And then that's where the long lasting solution and good relationships come from.

Richard: Absolutely, yeah.

Terry: Just thinking about, I mean, fairness. I mean, one of the things that obviously managers – you talked about managers being sometimes a bit afraid about what the consequences of various things that they might do are – and we're operating where there are legal rights that exist in this arena, Richard, around if ultimately an organisation took the decision to dismiss somebody, the question would be whether that was fair and reasonable. For me, I think there's not enough focus on the what was done outside of the formal procedures that preceded it. Is that your experience too?

Richard: No, definitely. And I think we often end up having to go through those formal procedures because we haven't done the work earlier on. There are certain times when no matter what the manager does, they don't resolve the issue, they can't resolve the issue. Those formal procedures in those cases might be really necessary.

There is a tendency sometimes to have never-ending conversations, and you never actually take the plunge of actually maybe making things a bit more serious and making things formal. So it has its place, but you can avoid the vast majority of those formal processes which are difficult for everybody. Note, I think people underestimate that the impact on the manager of being involved in formal processes, I think it's really, really difficult – people doing investigations, things like that. It's incredibly stressful. And the HR people, if there are HR people in the organisation, you know, I think HR professionals involved in these things, it's not easy. It's very difficult. It has negative impacts on everybody.

But if you can have those conversations early on, then I think you can resolve them. And when I'm asked to advise, and sometimes I'm asked to advise organisations, and they say "oh no Rich, we've got a real problem here", I would say 9 times out of 10, you could trace it back, and there will be an opportunity at some point earlier on to have sorted it out. And they just haven't done. That issue could have been sorted out at a lower point and resolved without all this pain and without all this money and without all the stress that it involves. So, I think the fairest way to deal with issues is to deal with them at a lower point. And sometimes managers don't like that.

Terry: Absolutely. And I love that. I love that description, Richard, about it being an opportunity. Do not miss the opportunity to resolve it at that earliest possible level. I think the opportunity, as well, is that when and if it needs to move into formal processes, the line manager can be confident about saying "I gave the individual the opportunity to address these issues at an earlier level" as well. So in terms of accountability, dealing with things informally does not remove accountability. You're just dealing with it at the right level when you can. And I think that's such an important message to get across. Because I think sometimes managers may see informal processes of less value, when I think what we're saying is they could actually be the most value.

Richard: Organisations will very often give their managers training in formal processes and procedures, because they're worried about their managers perhaps doing something which is going to end up in an employment tribunal, et cetera. Managers need to know how to use formal processes, don't get me wrong. But actually, the most important bit of training is to give the managers the skills so they don't get there in the first place.

A lot of organisations do that, but I'm afraid probably far more don't do that, and they think it's because managers should just know how to do this stuff.

I remember somebody from a bit of research that we did a few years ago who said that they felt that somebody might just be working in a team one day, and then they're promoted to be a manager, and the organisation just assumes there's like a sprinkling of fairy dust and they suddenly have all these skills to be a manager.

And I think we have reluctant and accidental managers, people who just find themselves being a manager. They've not necessarily asked to be that, maybe it's the only way of getting promoted, but they don't have that support.

And I think the crucial thing is, is that for organisations, a small amount of time and effort and, yeah, cost invested in just building some core skills in managers will pay a significant return. Because they're just not going to have the same number and level of problems that they would do if they didn't have those skills, in my view.

Terry: So if we're looking at where we are now, Richard. And we've talked a lot about conflict and early resolution of conflict, and the benefits of that, and there's this training product out there in terms of the Skilled Managers conflict management skills course. If you were to say, why now, is there anything specific about where we are now, do you think is happening that managers need to and businesses need to be looking at investing and skilling their managers in early resolution of conflict?

Richard: Where we started with this project was that there's loads of evidence out there that we're not very good in the UK at managing people and conflict. If organisations want to make themselves more sustainable and future proof, then I think they need their managers to be in the right place.

If we have new legislation which perhaps makes it easier for people to bring claims against their employer, employers are going to have to resolve things at an earlier point. And they can't just expect their managers to be able to pick that up. I would be investing in my managers and making sure that there was no chance of them going to an employment tribunal, or to minimise those chances by giving my managers the skills to snuff issues out right at source.

If we focus on what happens right at the start of a problem and resolve it at that point, then we don't need to worry about, you know, the complexities of employment legislation and hiring solicitors to deal with things. Employers can just invest a little bit now in building up their capacity. You know, they don't spend huge amounts of money on this, a little bit of investment now will future proof them for what might come next.

Terry: Thank you, Richard. It's been lovely having a conversation about resolving conflict and resolving conflict well and early in workplaces.

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